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Frostys Virpio
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1724
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Posted - 2015.04.27 13:38:31 -
[1] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote: lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.
That's what I do, because I don't see it changing.
Fun fact, the more people getting on the "milk the cow" bandwagon, the lesser the income will be because the number of sites at the same time is limited. No more than 15 HQ fleet (this would already be lower isk/hours because of the delay to get another site would start showing up) will ever be able to get a payout at the same time. 600 character can effectively max it out. If everybody were to put their bling ship where their mouth is, everybody would constantly get contested and chance are incursion would be in "respawn" mode more often after episode of rage popping moms. |
Frostys Virpio
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1724
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Posted - 2015.04.27 13:45:10 -
[2] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote: lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.
That's what I do, because I don't see it changing. Fun fact, the more people getting on the "milk the cow" bandwagon, the lesser the income will be because the number of sites at the same time is limited. No more than 15 HQ fleet (this would already be lower isk/hours because of the delay to get another site would start showing up) will ever be able to get a payout at the same time. 600 character can effectively max it out. If everybody were to put their bling ship where their mouth is, everybody would constantly get contested and chance are incursion would be in "respawn" mode more often after episode of rage popping moms. Reminds me of how the griefers raged about the goons for killing their moms.
With the amount of traction threads like this get, I can't understand why no-one was ever able to motivate 40 dudes to go run a 100+ million isk/hours fleet while also raining on someone else's parade at least partially by stealing some of the best sites.
Then make that 80 dudes and you start to slowdown everybody because sites are not insta-respawning and you also pose a thread to the mom.
Hell you can make it a bit more risky by even solo by pre-loading TCRC sites. A good group will get over it but it's still a tighter spot then smooth sailing the original site from scratch. |
Frostys Virpio
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1724
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Posted - 2015.04.27 14:05:39 -
[3] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
There used to be couple people back then when isbox was a thing. But still there are plenty of sites and most of the times more than 1 incursion just in highsec.
Most recent one is a guy with 40 nightmares, but hes just one more fleet and rarely runs anymore. It is just absurd the amount of multitasking and setup you need to do it solo without keybroadcasting isbox feature.
You also can't possibly believe you would solo contest another fleet and win with nightmares do you? ^^
I never said you had to solo it. Why do you insist on being able to give trouble or at least slow down a fleet of 40 by your own self? How hard is it to form your own fleet with actual player instead of trying to do it all by yourself?
I guess the incursion runners friends are just as OP as the CFC's friends.
We shoud nerf friends. That way, no one would see the mad ISK of incursion. |
Frostys Virpio
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1724
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Posted - 2015.04.27 14:10:14 -
[4] - Quote
Aladar Dangerface wrote:
However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.
Fun fact, the incursion runners making the most ISK also put more at risk than the ones putting less. Get a low bling fleet and compare their income to a full blinged out fleet and you will see putting more at risk affect the total payout.
What you want is not "more at risk" but "same at more risk". |
Frostys Virpio
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1724
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Posted - 2015.04.27 14:17:29 -
[5] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aladar Dangerface wrote:
However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.
Fun fact, the incursion runners making the most ISK also put more at risk than the ones putting less. Get a low bling fleet and compare their income to a full blinged out fleet and you will see putting more at risk affect the total payout. What you want is not "more at risk" but "same at more risk". what risk?
Ganks, fail logi, falling asleep. The same stuff as miners, freighter, mission runners. The 6 bill ship still has to be in space to earn any ISK and LP. The fact that very few people try to gank those 120k EHP piniata is not the fault of the dude flying the ship in the first place. Hell you can even know where they are via the game interface instead of having the camp a gate waiting for them.
If there was no risk like you imply, nobody would ever lose their ships. The risk might be low but it's still there. |
Frostys Virpio
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1724
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Posted - 2015.04.27 14:31:38 -
[6] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aladar Dangerface wrote:
However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.
Fun fact, the incursion runners making the most ISK also put more at risk than the ones putting less. Get a low bling fleet and compare their income to a full blinged out fleet and you will see putting more at risk affect the total payout. What you want is not "more at risk" but "same at more risk". what risk? Ganks, fail logi, falling asleep. The same stuff as miners, freighter, mission runners. The 6 bill ship still has to be in space to earn any ISK and LP. The fact that very few people try to gank those 120k EHP piniata is not the fault of the dude flying the ship in the first place. Hell you can even know where they are via the game interface instead of having the camp a gate waiting for them. "falling asleep" you just made that up because you didnt have anything else to add.
I've seen ships blowing up without a single broadcast being sent. I assumed they were asleep. Wanking to **** on second screen if you prefer or just call it inattention. Fact is, it happens. |
Frostys Virpio
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1725
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Posted - 2015.04.27 14:52:15 -
[7] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:lol *facedesk*
You can't interrupt a fleet of 40 so you choose to band your head on a desk instead of finding friends willing to mess with incursionners. Your call I guess. |
Frostys Virpio
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1725
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Posted - 2015.04.27 15:02:15 -
[8] - Quote
Hipqo wrote:Form a new corp, kinda like "CODE" but focus on incursion pilots and go out and ruin they're day. If you do this enough, the meta will change, because they players will be forced to change it.
Never ending wardecs, continuous harrasment of incursion fleets, bumping, ganking and tons of tears! It would be beautiful!!
If you think incursion pilots needs more risk, create it for them, as you dont seem to be the only one here with that thought.
Wardeccing does not work as they are not in corps or just shell corps.
Harassement is stupid. You either punch big or go home.
Bumping is kinda silly as you will ahve a hard time bumping the actual elements that would stop a fleet (logi). Your best bet is the FC if he is running a vindi/nightmare.
Ganking require more people than most seem to be willing to get together. |
Frostys Virpio
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1728
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Posted - 2015.04.27 17:19:45 -
[9] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. Highsec players deserve content, too, you know.... And it's not even like there's no risk. Incursions aren't easy at any level.
Content would still be available even if the reward was 1/1000000th of what it is. It's not a "content" question at all. |
Frostys Virpio
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1728
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Posted - 2015.04.27 17:44:38 -
[10] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms. Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec?
Somehow you also have to lose that mad isk no? Not that it's a balancing factor for the current income but what do people do with all those ISK beside buy another incursion boat after they managed to lose one? After the 800 ish mill for their PLEX and a let's say 400 mill as "insurance policy" in case they lose a boat, what do people spend all that on? |
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Frostys Virpio
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1734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:05:45 -
[11] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: You need to put time and effort into it, its not like rolling up to a retreiver with a Venture, scan it for tank then warp the catalysts in, but then again it shouldn't be like that should it?
You're spinning, and it's obvious to everyone here. List some. I don't care how much "time" or "effort" you claim it has, list some. [edit: Oh, and it's really funny to see someone who defends dec dodging with his every breath talk about time or effort, by the way.
You are hoping for something that won't happen. Some for of disruption have already been listed in this very thread tho. Ganks are possible but with a higher barrier of entry because your target are either small sig mobile logi cruisers or actually tanked BS. You have to plan for the worst case scenario every time as opposed to barge or freighter ganks where you can in the vast majority of case forgo any potential logi helping your target. Alpha is the name of the game but the setup is high.
Another one is infiltration. Getting inside most of the community is not all that hard. The issue is you burn yourself on the first bad move you do unless you have a really good excuse. Purple on purple shooting will usually get you blacklisted real fast because most FC will just ask you why you don't run PvE content with safety on green now. I've seen people CONCORD themself with safety reds and let me tell you it's absolutely funny how much heat they get for it. Best one was logi's drone on the FC.
Your best bet if you want to cause more disruption with infiltration would technically be logi work in a basilisk/guardian. HQ Otuni spawn are pretty much the only time people expect to risk losing their ship (low probability but if it happens, it's usually on those spawns). The key point is of course to "mess up" and not cap feed the target. IMPORTANT: The chance of this working as still EXTREMELY low because you should not be the only possible cap feed, the ship should still receive some raw reps even if his hardeners got shutdown, his pasive regen between neut cycles might let him cycle his invulns and the more bling your fleet is, the less time sanshas have to burn him down.
Results!!!
1- It works but require more effort than most people seem to be willing to put into it. Not sure why but it is what it is. 2- Yeah sure, let's ask people to chain train incursion running characters to get over the black listing. It's not stupid at all!!! /sarcasm 3- You might pull it off but that's like playing craps and hoping you will win that bet requiring all results to be rolled...
Analysis of results : Disturbing a fleet of logi supported BS is hard. News at 11. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:23:23 -
[12] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
You cant gank a battleship fleet.
I never said you could gank the fleet. The recent smartbomb "event" demonstrated it. That still does nto mean you can't at least have an impact on it's members. You definitely won't stop them dead in the water but you can slow them down of cut their income. If they lose a few bling ship in a row, you can bet some people will start to get away from the most efficient fit for tankier ones because even if they are raking major dough, they still hate losing ships while doing it. Every mods they swap for more tank if an efficiency mod they lose for making that sweet 200+ mill isk/hours. Everybody want their vindi with 2 webs but the pilot might fly only one with an extenders if 4 ship has been killed recently with the gankers still in systems. If you do enough damage, you might even afk cloak them a bit.
I say again. You will not stop them. Not under the current rules of the game. If that is your goal, the required amount of effort is more than likely WAY too high to be worth it. Kaarous was asking for way to disrupt them, I provided just that and even said they were mostly not very effective because that's how things are. |
Frostys Virpio
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1734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:31:20 -
[13] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lets get to the meat of this issue ratting carriers are cheaper then bling incursion boats designed to win competitions against other bling boats. are bling incursion boats cheaper than bling ratting carriers? that is the question Why would you use a bling fitted carrier? to maximise your isk/hr, same as what they do in machs in highsec?
Someone doing a bad investment is not a reason for you too to make one... I was able to accept running bling when I ran incursion because you were able to get to a point where it gave an advantage especially if the whole fleet was not bling'd out. The second web on a vindi really nice to have when some of the short range dudes are in navy mega or similar boat but running dual webs kind of require you to bling out the invulns. High meta MWD is nice to reduce the requirement of cap feed if you somehow can't get your hands on enough Logi V pilots. You are also backed up by logi which reduce the risk of losing that bling. Your solo carrier basicly only count on himself so bling is less wise for the relatively low increase in monetary gain speed. |
Frostys Virpio
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1734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:40:16 -
[14] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Good god man you are after one of the bling fitted BS...
Which not only sports a large tank but is supported by logistics and a fleet that will open fire back.
Many won't open fire. The gank attempts I saw were always missed by lack of alpha or dps and CONCORD killed their ABC. Not the fleet killing them off.
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Frostys Virpio
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1734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:48:42 -
[15] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: A carrier training time is irrelevant, its a tool that you train into to maximise your return.
It's highly relevant, you just want to discard it because it goes against your narrative. He's not the liar here, you are, desperately spinning around trying to avoid the elephant in the room, that highsec incursions are absolutely broken.
Slash it by half and see what happen. I just don't want them to go away as the OP suggested.
Risk/reward is forever broken IMO because there is no number that can be put to make a real ratio out of it. |
Frostys Virpio
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1734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:53:01 -
[16] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Well, it's true it got kinda out of hand, back when ISBOXER wasn't banned I was doing incursions with 5 alts, I was earning about 750 mil/hour.
Made more than 100 billion isk in a few months.
Sniff. Wow Back before the various anom and titan nerfs, I buddy of mine used to blitz the hell out of forsaken hubs in null using an Avatar Titan and a Tracking Link Scimitar (with a Web to fling the Titan around). That tactiic in pve and pvp led to the Titan nerf where Titans can't receive those kinds of remote buffs anymore lol. He made about 500 mil per hour doing that. And you beat him by a Quarter bil per hour... in high sec. Dayum. RIP isboxer lol.
Isboxer always scaled pretty well as long as you were able to get the spots in the same role. I mean the groups already behave like a blob by anchoring and following a target order so you really can't get much trouble by having copies of yourself. You need to PLEX more account but you get over that cost rather fast if you are willing to put in the required time. |
Frostys Virpio
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1734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:58:48 -
[17] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: A carrier training time is irrelevant, its a tool that you train into to maximise your return.
It's highly relevant, you just want to discard it because it goes against your narrative. He's not the liar here, you are, desperately spinning around trying to avoid the elephant in the room, that highsec incursions are absolutely broken. Slash it by half and see what happen. I just don't want them to go away as the OP suggested. Risk/reward is forever broken IMO because there is no number that can be put to make a real ratio out of it. I don't want them removed unless it's out of the question to just make incursions systems default to lowsec. In which case, yes, I want them gone. But I'd much rather the former, it would be fun to see pockets of lowsec pop up in different places every day.
Then I guess you would delete them as the usage would be extremely low...Why keep the code running at that point... |
Frostys Virpio
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1734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 14:05:51 -
[18] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: Then I guess you would delete them as the usage would be extremely low...Why keep the code running at that point...
Honestly? I just want to see risk vs reward not be so obscenely unbalanced. Incursions are ridiculous right now, and they either need more risk or less isk. My preference would be for more risk.
I might be wrong but I don't forsee risk being added. At least not directly like spawning only in low sec. Corp/wardec changes maybe but don't hold your breath for that. |
Frostys Virpio
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1734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 15:32:47 -
[19] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:afkalt wrote:Solecist Project wrote:CSM Minutes, last year, page 125. Kaa already pointed it out. CCP believes as well that it's too much. To be fair they said "potentially". Then buffed them immediate after. Mixed messages there! Ah. Had no idea about the timing. Yeah that's kind of nonsensical. As if one hand had no idea what the other does. That's totally unheard of from CCP! *snickers xD*
The guy who made the statement as quoted in the minutes is no longer with CCP. Whatever he said in a meeting holds as much value as Frostys Virpio Inc on the Toronto stock market by now. |
Frostys Virpio
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1734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 16:21:16 -
[20] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Danalee wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:INFLATION DOESN'T EXIST, IT'S A HOAX BY THE GOVERNMENT TO KEEP US DOWN.. Calm down sir, somebody will be here to pick you up shortly. D. Well i never said that. But inflation in a closed economy is highly irrelevant. In the real world high inflation is bad because it lowers the value of a nations currency vs competitor nations. Resulting in more expensive imports, and less lucrative exports. Since EVE has no competitive currency market, ISK can be worth absolutely nothing in valuation. So ya it kind of is a hoax in the game since it has absolutely no positive or negative impact on the health of the economy as whole. About the only thing impacted would be PLEX conversion, but fun fact, PLEX isn't mandatory to experience EVE, it is a secondary option for a variety of Cash transactions. If you can't afford a PLEX...get a job and pay the sub.
Well technically some people would be more impacted by inflation than others. Mostly whoever makes his ISK outside of the market. Bounties and mission rewards (ISK not LP) don't scale with inflation while anything that goes through the market does. The population being hit the hardest by inflation? Ratters who don't loot/salvage. |
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Frostys Virpio
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1735
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Posted - 2015.04.28 17:57:25 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you.
Thats the problem. Why would we spend more isk, time, effort and risk so much more in null when we can earn twice as much in highsec and enjoy the protection of concord?
Well "soon" you would because you want your index to be high to help defend your magic wand assets from fast capping. I'm not saying it's a good reason but it will technically be one "soon"... |
Frostys Virpio
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1737
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Posted - 2015.04.29 00:17:28 -
[22] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient. We have no info so right now we will continue to hammer home the message that fozziesov will fail if the rewards are not there. that has been my main issue with 0.0 for as long as I've been playing. It never felt like it was worth it to be in null as an individual, Ratting/anoms feel constricting to me. If more than a few people want to be active a system can't support that. Sure when you are part of a blue doughnut empire you can just switch systems. I just don't understand why they haven't added any group PVE for null. I want to play with people! plus if a fight comes along I want to be in some sort of position to take the fight rather than have half a dozen people scattered over a constellation and the best move being safe up.
The problem of lack of group content is completely related to the omnipresence of alts. Why would you do something with someone when you can do it by yourself? Your alt is pretty much just as good as anyone at doing most PvE in EVE. Anything you can "team up with friends" to do can be done with alts too and then you keep the whole proceedings instead of just a fraction of it. |
Frostys Virpio
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1740
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Posted - 2015.04.29 11:57:50 -
[23] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Mithandra wrote:Do they pay out too much isk for the risk... obviously
Am I going to jump on the nerf incursions bandwagon.. nope
Why?
Because I don't do them and they don't affect the way I play.
And before you start. Im not interested in your 400 pages of financial asshattery "proving" that incursions are killing eve, cos I look out of my window and see shedloads of people playing the game still. Nit caring about the greater good is pretty common nowadays. As long as they only detain everyone else it's all fine. No need to raise your voice about it. When they come for you, there will be no one left to raise his voice. Selfish prick.
Making a big deal out of everything is just as common.
When something really big comes, people are tired of the bullshitting you already generated over banalities and will let you to protest alone. |
Frostys Virpio
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1741
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Posted - 2015.04.29 15:17:21 -
[24] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Devs have stated this is goal/intention always as well and admit hisec incursion isk is too high.
You have a source for that other than 1 dev saying he think they might be paying too much?
A dev no longer with CCP... |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 15:33:44 -
[25] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Putting 30B+ into an engagement that can go sideways if people aren't doing their jobs is risk losing ships to NPCs is not risk, it is incompetence
As long as the EVE player base consider stacking the odds in their advantage to be the sign of not messing up, PvP loss are also incompetence... |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 15:35:33 -
[26] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Eve was founded on risk=reward
It was a neat idea that never worked. CCP never really made anything for it so you could almost say it's not a DEV supported idea. |
Frostys Virpio
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1743
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Posted - 2015.04.29 18:37:56 -
[27] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Why exactly would anyone want to move out to null if they can make more in highsec?
By now I'm starting to think the reason as seen by CCP is "because you want to". |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 18:45:22 -
[28] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:A) This was changed because most people live in HS, and CCP is catering to its largest subscriber base. As they should since they are a business, and businesses exist to generate profits. LOL How many incurion runners that make BILLIONS of isk a week pay ccp $15 a month cash? Id wager over 75% bux plex off the market SOMEONE ELSE paies ccp $20 for and you use that to sub your account. Incursion running dont actually hand ccp cash from their wallets. Take an econ class
Who paid the PLEX does not matter. Economy class would make YOU understand CCP don't give a damn about who paid that 20$ as long as they get it. The important metric for them is how many account are active be it paid directly or through PLEX. |
Frostys Virpio
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1744
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Posted - 2015.04.29 18:50:19 -
[29] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Anuri Suaraj wrote:I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless. And of course this is incorrect. I'm a PVE player. This developers of this game says it has a 'risk/reward/ scheme, but I'm punished for pursing PVE gameplay in null sec (both sov and NPC), but rewarded for being able to fly a cheap stealth bomber or an incursion hip in protected high security space. The only PVE that adheres to the games risk/reward balance is wormhole space (which I dabble in), but the rest just doesn't make sense mostly. It's stupid. It wasn't always that way. Back before 2008, you could make a living in high sec via missions, you could have a little extra fun with high sec exploration and be rewarded to a point. But beyond those points, you had to gamble a little, take risks, and pit yourself against hungry PVP types if you wanted to have the real fun (like pirate corp missions, or DED plexes above 6/10s). But now it's all fouled up, they choice is "sure, go scan down a DED 10/10 that hasn't been changed since 2007 and pray the RNG gods are with you" or "go do incursions, and unless you are stupid enough to platy during EUTZ when contests happen, get the same large pay out every time". In a way it's a lot like the old clone upgrade scheme ccp just changed: it looks lie a choice....but it's not really a choice because if you don't make the one true choice, you get punished. CCP has said they want to get rid of false choices in the game, and one place that really needs this is PVE.
To me, all you just said is "Since 2008, risk/reward has not been supported by the devs". |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 18:53:49 -
[30] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Anuri Suaraj wrote:I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless. And of course this is incorrect. I'm a PVE player. This developers of this game says it has a 'risk/reward/ scheme, but I'm punished for pursing PVE gameplay in null sec (both sov and NPC), but rewarded for being able to fly a cheap stealth bomber or an incursion hip in protected high security space. The only PVE that adheres to the games risk/reward balance is wormhole space (which I dabble in), but the rest just doesn't make sense mostly. It's stupid. It wasn't always that way. Back before 2008, you could make a living in high sec via missions, you could have a little extra fun with high sec exploration and be rewarded to a point. But beyond those points, you had to gamble a little, take risks, and pit yourself against hungry PVP types if you wanted to have the real fun (like pirate corp missions, or DED plexes above 6/10s). But now it's all fouled up, they choice is "sure, go scan down a DED 10/10 that hasn't been changed since 2007 and pray the RNG gods are with you" or "go do incursions, and unless you are stupid enough to platy during EUTZ when contests happen, get the same large pay out every time". In a way it's a lot like the old clone upgrade scheme ccp just changed: it looks lie a choice....but it's not really a choice because if you don't make the one true choice, you get punished. CCP has said they want to get rid of false choices in the game, and one place that really needs this is PVE. To me, all you just said is "Since 2008, risk/reward has not been supported by the devs". Problem is, they think they have been.
Or you think they do...
It's funny because while a DEV said incursion might be paying too much, one also said NS was makign enough ISK.
One of them is still working for CCP. |
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Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 19:05:06 -
[31] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Google econ opportunity cost.
You are actually LOSING CCP MONEY
If you couldnt plex your account by incursions, youd have to give ccp 15$ per month from your wallet. You dont have to, hense they lose the opportunity of you paying 15$ and must allow you to play their game for free forever cuz you want to make 20bill a month risk free in hisec
CCP themselves don't count it like that but feel free to. They consider PLEX purchase as deferred income as long as it is not used for sub/aurums/character customisation/transfers/... |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 19:11:49 -
[32] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote: Why exactly would anyone want to move out to null if they can make more in highsec? By now I'm starting to think the reason as seen by CCP is "because you want to". That's what I talk about when I say 'false choices'. It's like someone saying "hey dude, you can stay here in Beverly Hills, do very little and make a milliion bucks a week, or you can choose to leave here and move to the nearest ghetto slum and maybe make minimum wage flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant, and by the way that restaurant gets robbed at least once a week, so good luck". WTF kind of choice is that lol?
The game is already full of stupid stuff where an alt to make X is the best way to do something. Why are you surprised about it being like that about income? Do you really expect them to fix this?
The group that hold SOV have so many hours sunk into it they won't leave because NS income is too low compared to HS. They will suck it up and create alts. Like for various other things in the game that will also not get changed until it cause something large enough to push them into changing it.
You want it to change, strap yourself in and get ready to rock the boat enough but be warned, CCP does not give you what you want but what it think you need/deserve.
Now go and run incursions with the people that agree with you that it has to be nerfed enough for it to actually cause something bad in the game. Prove it to CCP how bad the thing is. You have all the tools. You already know how to run the sites and according to yourself, you can't lose money while doing it.
What are you waiting for? The change is just a couple of Kundulini away!!! |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 19:30:54 -
[33] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
BTW, anyone otice how the pro-status quo crowd aren't PVErs are incursion runners lol?
You heard it here first folks, incursion are not PvE... |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 20:31:05 -
[34] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
BTW, anyone otice how the pro-status quo crowd aren't PVErs are incursion runners lol?
You heard it here first folks, incursion are not PvE... You know that's a typo lol. Quote:Jenn aSide wrote: You just shouldn't be able to make that kind of isk in a high sec situation where you personally aren't even concentrating very hard
Why? Because it's not fair? Why? Common sense. If you have two alternatives, one harder and less lucrative, and the other easier and more lucrative, it kind of make syou stupid to pick the 1st one (unless you are in to that kind of whips and leather like BS). This is a game, a game shouldn't punish you for doing interesting things (like trying to make game-money in space where people are trying to kill you, like an Indiana jones movie) while rewarding you for playing it safe.
You want to build the game around common sense? |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 20:38:09 -
[35] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:B)Allow players with High Sansha standings to both not be targeted by the rats, and not suffer CONCORD. This would be the best solution possible, as it would put power in the players hands to enforce rules, create entities, etc. It also has potential to get lots of would be high-sec antagonists to venture to Stain for a while to get those standings..which of course creates more avenue for content to grow. i think this is just a great idea in general
They would get run just as much as the low sec ones if you remove the CONCORD protection even if it has a standing requirement toward a particular faction. |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 21:56:02 -
[36] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: The game is already full of stupid stuff where an alt to make X is the best way to do something. Why are you surprised about it being like that about income? Do you really expect them to fix this?
They are going to have to now that sov is tied to people actually using their space.
They don't have to as long as some people are "tryhard" enough to keep SOV to their name.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So apparently, a few hundred people in highsec can make a full third as much as the entire rest of the game combined... But some people think that's just fine.
Join the club and show them how broken it is. The more people jump on any bandwagon, the higher the chance of CCP nerfing it.
What are you waiting for? You are already in high sec anyway. |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 22:03:18 -
[37] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
They don't have to as long as some people are "tryhard" enough to keep SOV to their name.
Which given the fact that most null space currently abandoned isn't going to happen.
Just wait for the SOV change. You know at least the "I mined it for free" crowd will give it a shot. |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.29 22:28:34 -
[38] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:I'm sorry, but with space in nullsec being abandoned ...
... does that mean I can just go there and plant my [things] and ... then what?
Techically yes as long as you manage to handle the logistic side of moving your thing there and accept it might get burned down just because. |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:19:10 -
[39] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Well facts show this is just plain wrong.
NA - ~10K peak renters PBLRD- ~4K peak renters BOT - ~5K peak renters X.W.X - ~5K peak renters
~24K renters over the past 2 years CHOSE to enter into Sov NS, because the barriers were removed for them. These 24K people could have just as easily stayed in HS and got better rewards, but they didn't they chose to enter into NS, for whatever reason.
And all of them idiots. We have scammed literally tens of thousands with our recruitment over the last few years, so using your logic giving me 500 mil to join bat country and all your ships to transport out to us is a great idea.
Them being idiot is completely irrelevant. The important things is they are there and might return once the barrier change. CCP won't give a rat ass if some player decide to not go in SOV null because the income is bad as long as there are enough people who does. Who use that space is irrelevant as long as some one is using it even if they are economically challenged.
The real fun part will be the first few weeks where people will claim the were "right" and that new peopel are indeed trying to get systems. This will be the initial surge which is useless as a data point. Fozzie sov will live or die over time and that is something we can't know right now. Maybe those you call stupid will wise up, maybe they will get burned down too often and give up or maybe they will hold there anyway because they like it like that. |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:50:22 -
[40] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots?
They don't make their isk in null.
Nodody cares where they make their ISK as long as they are willing to burn it on keeping some systems to their name. |
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Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:54:22 -
[41] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Nodody cares where they make their ISK as long as they are willing to burn it on keeping some systems to their name.
If they dont live in null sov then fozziesov wont work. It needs people to live in sov space so yes, it does matter where they make their isk.
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it? |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:02:58 -
[42] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack. If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov.
You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit?
Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game? |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.04.30 16:23:44 -
[43] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack. If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov. You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit? Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game? We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there.
Will you keep burning it every few weeks to be sure to "teach" idiots how little that space is worth? |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.01 16:32:38 -
[44] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
So what do the "60 haters" get out of this? Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet. What balance issues are you referring to again? Perhaps we can remove all the ISK that was created by the Tech imbalance, I hope he means this...
The TECH imbalance created 0 ISK unless someone found a way to sell to NPC buy orders...
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Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.01 16:35:19 -
[45] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
So what do the "60 haters" get out of this? Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet.
Nothing since it was a bad idea to begin with. You can't **** up another fleet's payout unless you beat them at completing the site OR somehow manage to join their fleet AND get on grid for the site closure.
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Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.01 19:14:49 -
[46] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Dracvlad wrote: I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"
Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto. And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count. Fun fact, people were complaining about Tech bottleneck back in 2010, while GSF was busy being Kartooned. Before that people complained about Dyspro bottleneck. But ya it was Goons that got it changed not the other 350K people outside the CFC saying, hey wait a minute this is fucky. How much isk does an ego trip cost now a days? Im sure it was Goons who got Tech buffed in the first place to right. Exposing the Dyspro Dupers prior to the rebalance of T2 build requirements. I imagine the Mittani himself spoke directly with Hilmar and made him an offer he couldn't refuse, or something like that? (CCP used to use these little things as content drivers, until they realized artificial content creation was lame compared to letting the players make their own reasons) We were the ones that went and took almost all of them and then said "we warned you now nerf us". Thats the difference between us and you. You are willing to keep game imbalances when you make personal gain. We tell CCP its broken then force it to be fixed. As you said, we are here to destroy your game not the game.
You were already told in this very thread what to do if it was as imbalanced as you say. You already know the drill. Get overwhelming control over it and then tell CCP to nerf you.
Form 3+ fleet for every incursion and show them how much it break the game when 120+ player from null sec make that much ISK. Since incursion also have a rather low risk level, there is no problem for an entity recognized for it's ability to get things rolling with unmatched efficiency.
Show us, glorious Imperium, how broken it is. |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.01 19:20:18 -
[47] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Its odd how you can view tech moons as being unbalanced yet you can see the same thing when it comes to highsec activities that are just as broken.
Well history, up until at least now, has proven that CCP considered the moons to be unbalanced while not proving the consider incursion unbalanced. Who's fault is it if CCP never deemed it worth it to divide a bunch of number by 2?
It's not like that have to re-seed incursions to nerf their income if they see it as unbalanced as they pretty much had to do with moons. |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.06 14:41:16 -
[48] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Druze Okaski wrote: Reading all that's been said the best options to lower the income of Incursion runners are the following:
1. Run the Incursions yourself. More competition lowers individual income. (Works on the market as well as we all know.) .
The "if you can't beat them, join them" logic is always a flawed argument. Otherwise we would all be flying with Baltec1 or (insert other giant Alliances here). Another way to put it: You don't end greed by being more greedy than the other guy.
Except this is a CCP game so more people being greedy would show the imbalance even more and more than likely get it fixed if they see it needs to. Look at most of the past "controversial" changes that happened and I would bet you can remember history of such things getting used more and more before it got revised by CCP. It took months after drone mods affecting fighter really generated much complaints because the usage was rather limited. Once more people jumped on the bandwagon, the complaints got traction. Same for drone assists.
If incursion are as game breaking as people try to make it sound in this thread, CCP won't have a choice but to intervene if too many people do it or risk the economy slipping away.
It's a stupid way to deal with stuff IMO but it seems to be the one that player can do so ... |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.06 16:50:06 -
[49] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote: At the end of the day, there are ways to stop something you don't like in this game. "Just do it!"
There aren't ways to stop it. Sure you can spend a few billion trying to gank them at a huge loss but why would people waste their time to do that? Unlike Freighters these ships travel in gangs with large tanks, logi support, often boosters and can open fire right back at you. Ganking doesn't work on actual fleets. Ganking is done for profit, something the people of highsec cant seem to grasp. Killing the mom early was done for a while but ended because again, where is the gain for the people ending it early? Its not fun and it doesn't get you anything worth more than keeping it alive. You cant wardec these people as they are protected by NPC corps and you cant attck them in any normal way due to concord protection. No, when something is out of whack in terms of reward the only viable way to deal with it is to close the abuse, something CCP has been forced to do many times in the past.
Since you are not willing to beat them (incursion runners) at their own game (getting their sites so the income goes to you instead of them), then I guess you will have to wait for CCP to deem it important enough to change something about it. Which can be anywhere between the june release and the end of time. |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.06 16:54:59 -
[50] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:ashley Eoner wrote: You need ONE carrier one dreadnaught and a couple other ships. Bammo +800m an hour with less effort than incursions.
You could in theory do it without the carrier but it'd require a lot more effort.
One carrier is right. And that one Carrier is in WORMHOLE space not protected by CONCORD, in space where the content can be exhausted (you can't keep wormhole pve going like you can an incursion). If someone is bold enough to take or build a capital ship in unprotected space in order to make money, that is the game working as intended. That's risk/reward done right.
Why are you still posting here instead of beating the war drums to motivate people to run them to the very limit to force CCP to do something about something oh so broken? Every 15 minutes wasted here is at least 1 site not getting run. |
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Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.06 17:11:08 -
[51] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote: At the end of the day, there are ways to stop something you don't like in this game. "Just do it!"
There aren't ways to stop it. Sure you can spend a few billion trying to gank them at a huge loss but why would people waste their time to do that? Unlike Freighters these ships travel in gangs with large tanks, logi support, often boosters and can open fire right back at you. Ganking doesn't work on actual fleets. Ganking is done for profit, something the people of highsec cant seem to grasp. Killing the mom early was done for a while but ended because again, where is the gain for the people ending it early? Its not fun and it doesn't get you anything worth more than keeping it alive. You cant wardec these people as they are protected by NPC corps and you cant attck them in any normal way due to concord protection. No, when something is out of whack in terms of reward the only viable way to deal with it is to close the abuse, something CCP has been forced to do many times in the past. Since you are not willing to beat them (incursion runners) at their own game (getting their sites so the income goes to you instead of them), then I guess you will have to wait for CCP to deem it important enough to change something about it. Which can be anywhere between the june release and the end of time. All good, folks like me will make a fortune off the unbalanced things till then lol. This is the problem with people, they can't be honest enough or objective enough about things to call it like it is. While I don't like a lot about Goon types, at least they are honest about unbalanced things while at the same time they are exploiting them, and I do the same thing which is why I have both a incursion alt and a faction warfare alt. What I no longer have are alts to experience any substantial risk while filling my space wallets with space bucks
If you do nothing about it except keep running them without any change, why do you expect CCP to not just let you run them without any change?
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Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.06 17:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:ashley Eoner wrote: You need ONE carrier one dreadnaught and a couple other ships. Bammo +800m an hour with less effort than incursions.
You could in theory do it without the carrier but it'd require a lot more effort.
One carrier is right. And that one Carrier is in WORMHOLE space not protected by CONCORD, in space where the content can be exhausted (you can't keep wormhole pve going like you can an incursion). If someone is bold enough to take or build a capital ship in unprotected space in order to make money, that is the game working as intended. That's risk/reward done right. Why are you still posting here instead of beating the war drums to motivate people to run them to the very limit to force CCP to do something about something oh so broken? Every 15 minutes wasted here is at least 1 site not getting run. Because it's not that important. I've done my 'virtual civic duty' in pointing out the gross imbalance (that i'm benefitting from). A gross imbalance that helped thwart CCPs plans during this change(because rather than 'fight for better space', people just left for greener, more high-secy pastures), and will do so again when Fozziesov comes. CCP is literally wasting development time implementing a new Sov system that relies on PVE for defensive bonuses when it's stupid to do pve in null unless you're a renter or some kind of scrub. CCP changes it, the game gets better. CCP doesn't change it, all good as far as I'm concerned, I adapted to the imbalances in 2011 after the event I just linked. But it is crappy suboptimal game design no matter how much you try to deny it. Sorry if you can't understand this, but that a 'you' issue, not a 'me' issue.
You keep posting in a 36 pages thread about something not important. I think you need to revise who does not understand what is happening. I'm asking people to prove how broken it is and the only answer I get is a link to a video of 1 dude multi boxing VG sites, you telling me you will keep getting rich off of it and one answer about how the already in place soft cap would prevent it from breaking anything. None of those 3 answer proved anything beside that you are willing to adapt to whatever is the best investment of your time, some people are willing to put effort into multiboxing them and MAYBE it's not that big of a deal because there are caps on it.
If that's the best proof people can muster, it's no wonder CCP don't nerf such imbalance faster... |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.06 17:41:01 -
[53] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:I thought EVE was supposed to be harsh. Let's pretend for a sec that the usual suspects are actually right about high sec being safer than null (demonstrably false). If that were the case, why should the rewards be better in null? It's ******* harsh, remember? You want the freedom to be a douche, you pay the price for it. You work harder and fight over scraps. The easy money should be in the safer places. Why do you people have it so backwards in your twisted little minds? There should be no incursions in null and very few in low sec. CCP should move level fives back into high sec as well. Mr Epeen i usually have to agree with what you say as you usually talk sense but i dont know what happened here. why put effort in to fight over scraps your idea just kills eve
And yet, people are willing to "play" hours in TiDi for this "crap" space.
I'm not even gonna try to make it out to be better than high-sec but it sure has enough value for people to endure this in the name of a space flag... |
Frostys Virpio
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Posted - 2015.05.06 19:37:22 -
[54] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:I thought EVE was supposed to be harsh. Let's pretend for a sec that the usual suspects are actually right about high sec being safer than null (demonstrably false). If that were the case, why should the rewards be better in null? It's ******* harsh, remember? You want the freedom to be a douche, you pay the price for it. You work harder and fight over scraps. The easy money should be in the safer places. Why do you people have it so backwards in your twisted little minds? There should be no incursions in null and very few in low sec. CCP should move level fives back into high sec as well. Mr Epeen i usually have to agree with what you say as you usually talk sense but i dont know what happened here. why put effort in to fight over scraps your idea just kills eve And yet, people are willing to "play" hours in TiDi for this "crap" space. I'm not even gonna try to make it out to be better than high-sec but it sure has enough value for people to endure this in the name of a space flag... Yes, there is value in gaining space to rent to others while you go about the real business elsewhere lol. People fighting in tidi aren't doing so for isk, they are doing so because they are playing a video game and taking space from others is fun. You can rationalize all you want, but you're smarter than this Frosty.
CCP will "balance" along what the player base perceive. Fighters getting bonus from drone mods was a perfect example of that. Nobody cared about it when it was announced because everybody was so used to carrier being **** at killing small stuff. Giving a tracking and damage bonus to somthing that can't track worth **** can't be broken. Then people actually saw what it really meant in the grand scheme of things and started suing it. Then some people of course got on the recieving end of this and decided "I can do it too!". It's not until it was much more prevalant that any call to nerf assist ever got traction because everybody was always assuming carrier assigned fighter were borderline worthless. Every time they had seen it it was crap. Until they got volled' off grid a few time and realised it was not a fluke of every stars aligning against them. Fast forward and carriers and supers start assisting fighters much more often and what was not seen as an issue actaully pop out with much more player getting affected.
Is incursion income too good? More than likely but the bandwagon is not getting any fatter because people can't be arsed to run them anyway. If people cared enough, getting in a fleet would be much more of a hassle because you can bet people would be running them. Many player already have enough ISK to live by for god know how long. Some don't even want to put any effort and sell PLEXes. Traders make mountains because the relatively small amount of competitors keep the margins in some niche good. Mission runners can't be arsed to have to follow order from an FC and/or won't accept to rely on others for their income. Some people live by with what null will earn them so they won't run incursion even if it's better isk/time.
"It's too good" is completely relative and we currently have the proof that it's not that huge of a deal because we see one thread once a month maybe about it and it's always the same 3 camp bickering over it. "It's too good", "it's fine" and "stop posting and prove your claim" are posting more and more with longer and more precise wording of their argument but no one budge from it's current position. The statu quo was never threatened during those 36 pages because nobody will actually try to prove what they claim. Mostly because it's impossible to prove but also because :effort:.
You can say I rationalise over stuff to make my point but at the end of the day, incursion, just like trading, is only a klondike when you are actually doing it right and we won't ever tap it out because the very vast majority can't be bothered with it. More people actually care about owning "worthless" space than they do about the 200+ mill income available in high sec.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1774
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:55:02 -
[55] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash.
It got nerfed also because they pushed it and people were jumping on the bandwagon.
Why aren't people jumping on the incursion billionaire train like they were on the FW billionaire train? |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1774
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:06:36 -
[56] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash. Apparently, it makes more isk than incursions. They made several trillion in two days. Well damn, I should have hopped on that.
Go run incursion while they are still easy ISK or you will miss out!!! |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1774
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:16:51 -
[57] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
How stupid is it that now my BEST options for sustained high level isk making are "do boring high sec incursion" or "do stupid easy minmatar militia mission in a freaking bomber"?
*Point at game change history*
I don't know about you but I think you need to prove them more. Obviously CCP don't know it's happening yet.
Or they don't care about something being "wrong" in their game right now... |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1779
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 16:14:36 -
[58] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Madd Adda wrote: and what stops you from adding risk to incursions? a couple of catas should have enough to blow up incursion logis, then watch as they either scramble to wrap away/attack you or the NPC shred them
There is a reason why gank tactics are not used vs actual fleets with logi support. In any case the answer to a game imbalance is not to say just have players gank them ineffectively at a huge loss to themselves. After all, that argument could have been used for the tech moon imbalance.
What if moon materials was made into a drop from NPC instead of aquired through POS? You would still need to nerf incursions but would that help in maybe making it group content you do in ship instead of just grouping up for a timer if someone dare attack your infrastructure? Could it also provide income to members in larger numbers than 10 ish / systems? |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1779
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 17:04:12 -
[59] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Tarpedo wrote:
Incursions are minuscule part of the game compared to other activities in EVE - at any given time there are not more than 200 people doing them. Whole incursions community is 1-2k people out of 350k at best. Incursions don't affect economy on major scale, they don't change anything - but they work perfectly as red cloth for a bull i.e. they distract whiners from really important in-game issues. Just like governments use "war on drugs" theme to distract society from actually important issues (like ineffective governments).
This is the perfect example of denialism (and shifting goal posts) ever. See, for incursions to be "unblanced", they'd have to have : A) a lot of people doing them and B) Have a bad affect on the economy Problem is, none of that has anything to do with imbalance. And It's hard to tell which one is dumber. A thing is imbalanced based on it's relationship to other similar things, not on whether or not lots of people do it. What this poster just said is akin to saying "well yea he murdered someone, but since most people will never commit murder, no big deal". And it's funny that the poster posts saying that the incursion community is small. Another poster in this same thread did that and even helped out by posting this super useful graph. That's right, despite being, according to Tarpedo, a "Tiny" fraction of the EVE community, incursion rewards are the THIRD BIGGEST ISK FAUCET in the game. It takes 10s 100s of THOUSANDS of mission runners , ratters and anomaly farmers to generate more isk than "1-2k people out of 350k" (Tarpedo's own words). I'd like to thank Tarpedo for inadvertently demonstrating the gross imbalance she was at that moment trying to deny even existed. Seems to me that to some people, Denialism is a sport. If it was, this forum would would have many gold medalists.
But it has a CAP!!!
But yeah, slash the income. Just don't actually state a reasons since all that were provided can be shown to be sketchy with stats from the game...
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1781
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 20:09:03 -
[60] - Quote
Lena Lazair wrote:High-sec incursions should be moved exclusively to high-sec islands.
It introduces all kinds of risk to the overall process to offset the rewards, while still maintaining the integral separation of risk DURING the PvE activity, which is what the average high-sec player actually cares about.
There aren't that many high-sec highland IIRC so people could potentially leave a boat in most possible places. |
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1782
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:55:17 -
[61] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:SilentAsTheGrave wrote:If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back? you cant suicide gank actual BS fleets with logi support
You can but at too high a cost. You won't cover your cost unless you really get lucky but there is nothing preventing you from parking tornadoes on the gate to a TCRC and just shooting whoever is the first poor chap to land after completing the previous site. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1790
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 13:06:49 -
[62] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:I would love to see some evidence of your endeavours, jamming logi is still aggression so where are your kill/death mails please
Technically he/she won't get a KM if they only jam logi and if no-one shoot them for being criminal, then concord will be the only entity on the KM so it might not be posted.
This is of course taking for granted they don't even ***** on the target being potentially melted down by Sansha and somehow don't get rat aggro from e-war usage.
It kind of require every pieces to fall at the right places and people deliberately not whoring on the upcoming kill... I guess they could argue it takes a few seconds to spot which ship is getting shot to **** by deltoles, yulais and otunis... |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1790
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 14:44:56 -
[63] - Quote
Aivo Dresden wrote:Incursion income with a top notch blinged up fleet is like 150m/hr. That's assuming you get a nice rate on your LP as well. The only concern I have with it, isn't the income, it's the safety and ease. Incursions are run while you watch TV or do something else. The income vs effort / risk ratio is a little off.
The issue is the PvE in EVE don't really offer all that much possibilities for change over this. You can make the rats hit harder to somehow overcome the logis but then fleets will bring more logis.
Enemy spawning in waves makes the whole process really procedural. At 3 point in the whole site you really ahve to pay a bit more attention because the aggro can go anywhere. The only thing that really has to be killed asap and isn't only spawning at the same time as waves are 1 ship that use ECM in TCRC. The drone bunny usually take care of it all by himself.
There is next to no situational awareness required because your position is either where you are supposed to be to do your job or burning toward that point. You never have to move because something happened.
The risk could come from other player too but the effect of this is probably harder to predict. The bling fit would most likely gets rarer which is not that bad of a result but I personally can't say if the content would still be run like it is now. It would probably depend on what freedom of intervention the players have different from the current concord response. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1819
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 13:48:54 -
[64] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:baltec1 wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:
Reading this thread, it seems either the null dwellers posting suck, or are underrating the income. I never lived there for an extended period and I never made huge ISK from it, so I'm no expert. I know that a couple years ago the Null ratting bots were making as much as Incursion runners hands down. CCP has the confiscated PLEX to prove it.
80% of bots are found in highsec. Bots haven't been a thing in null for at least 7 years now and they have never pulled in incursion level isk. huh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX2Tn50UYFw move ahead to 30:40 or so Looks like bots are a thing in all parts of space. Juss sayan m Mike, they have a presentation of the same in pdf format - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/67092/1/Fanfest_2015_-_Team_Security_-_Better_Safe_Than_Sorry.pdf Fascinating slide on page 17, relevant to Incursions as well, or is that especially?
While the lion share are still in HS, there are more and more region in null that have dots appearing for banned bots in NS on the heat map pages 41-42 and 44-45. For all the "bots aren't a thing in null" speak, the heat map show many region used to not even show up on the heat map and do now.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2123
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 22:36:23 -
[65] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Yun Kuai wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities. It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better. I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand. Your ingorance is only surpased by your ego..... For starters, yes it's only 33mil/day to get a plex. But then you factor in the need for ships, mods, drones, ammo, etc and suddenly you need a whole lot more per day. Consider you like flying T2/T3 ships where you don't insurance and you need even more to replace the loss. Now add in the fact that maybe you only have time to log in on the weekend or maybe an hour a day and suddenly you're only logging on to "grind" the isk so that you can pay for a plex in hopes that 1 day you'll have more time/RL isk to play more. If you don't have a lot of time to play, WHY do you need a plex anyways? The problem with every.single.person. who complains about plex prices and 'grinding' is their screwed up sense of entitlement. They think they DESERVE to be able to use plex to pay a sub (that in terms of cash only cost 2 freaking quarters) that they barely even use. What I've always found irritating is that people post these stupid things like that post i'm quoting, and yet somehow I'm the problem lol.
But paying is for plebs so they can't lower themselves to that...
I do but I'm a pleb so vOv... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2128
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 16:15:01 -
[66] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote: At 33mill isk a day as you say how many t2 can you afford to fit and lose in pvp? Or pirate ships? Or even t2 fit t1 cruisers. How does that help removing risk aversion everybody istalking about? You lose a ship you have to grind weeks to replace it.
Most of the "nurf it" crowd has played for years and hoarded billions if not trillions of isk, trained dozens of characters and now they're bored oh farming pve sites with their herd of alts. "It's too easy, got no risk element!" Of course it's easy when you multibox a site or mission with 3 or more dead space blinged domies or (insert whatever pirate bs pinata you want here).
What the Hek should a new player do to fit in your nostalgic "I miss the times when drake was op so I'm starting a new char and troll the forums with it" canned soup of bitter memories community, when it has to wait months for skills that allow him to fly a ship he finally can't afford to lose?
"Oh Eve is dyin', I haz a sadness... can I haz a shovel to bury it plz?"
Well if you didn't try to finance your gametime with a part of your gameplay, you could invest all your grinding income to PvP. Just give your CC number to CCP and they will remove from you the need to grind a PLEX each month. That's an extra of about 33 mill/day you can spend on "fun" ships. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2129
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 15:35:17 -
[67] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:, ganking opposing fleets ships, awoxing. End of the day that's what the game is about yes? Those dont happen cuz of the Logi. Nice try. Thats more than half what people are cryimg/complaining about here dude. The fact it is harder to awox 1 man FF illegal Incursion wardec imune corps And lol ganking. You need to alpha them which good luck doing that to a maurader or bling BS without bringing 15 gank ships yourself. Youd be better to just use those 15 tornados on 15 separate haulers and get more kills and more loot. They need to be easier to kill all around if they make the most isk of all of eve while having the least risk. High isk=high risk=high chance of death.
It's cool and all that people consider them hard to gank but that's kind of the fault of the content itself. The incursion runners have a minimum threshold of tank required or they just lose ships after ships. This mean the average incursion runner boat is probably much more tanky than any hauler, mission runner or miner boat. Who's fault is it that the ship has to handle the initial spawn of a TCRC with otunis neuting your cap hard enough to sometime even turn off a DCU? The ship are harder to gank because the runners are FORCED by the content itself to fit better than the average bear.
They would all run thinner tank to get a few % more performance for added isk/hours if they could but the barrier of entry is there.
Logi also has a role to play but then again, the content require them to be there. You can't run HQ sites without logi. It just does not work.
Forced halfway decent tank fitted + forced logi support makes for harder ship to gank.
The only thing you can do is reduce the income or reduce the required buffer on the ships by lowering sansha's total applicable DPS. Then their total income will be lower OR they will be easyer to gank by virtue of being bears optimising their ISK/hours with just as much tank as the content require. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2133
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 15:12:11 -
[68] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:1. Change Sansha incursion rats to Drifters.
2. Instead of a MOM site, a WH spawns that you have to invade to make the incursion leave. If you do not invade the WH and destroy the Drifter base within, you do not get the Concord LP payout. Why a WH? So you not only have to worry about NPC content, but player driven content as well.
3. Reinforce the nodes in the constellations where incursions are ran. Thereby making it feasible to gank an incursion fleet with Smartbombing battleships. These changes will be great. That way I can forget about incursions for good. Highsec incursions should never have happened in the first place. They were interesting story line world events that never should have proceeded past their introduction. A review of their spawn rates in highsec is years overdue - cut to 1 highsec incursion per month with lp awarded on a corp basis with a 48 hour warm up. You want easy isk? Enjoy your wardecs all 50 million of them.
Pretty sure CCP disagree with you seeing as they made them spawn faster in high-sec recently.
From the Hyperion dev blog by CCP FoxFour:
Reducing the re-spawn time of Incursions
Right now when an Incursion finishes there is between a 24 and 48 hour delay until another Incursion spawns in the same security space replacing the one that ended. For example, if all of the Incursions in high sec are completed within a short time span of each other, it means that for a period of time there will be no Incursion in high sec.
This change is aimed at helping make sure that Incursion runners will always have them available when they log in. You may have to move to get to it, but at least the option is there for you to go do it.
More specifically we are reducing the min and max time between an Incursion being completed and it re-spawning elsewhere from 24 and 48 hours respectively to 12 and 36 hours respectively.
If anything, it means they wanted people to be able to participate more in them so vOv... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2133
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 18:01:37 -
[69] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:AtramLolipop wrote:Ridiculous post.
High sec incursions represent an minute amount of ISK that is generated in the Eve economy.
The amount of people that run incursions run into 100's, not 1000's that run missions and rat in null sec.
Get over this already. The highlighted part is true. It also means you are wrong.
Except you are also wrong because it generate nearly 0 ISK int he game just like mining and many other profession. The ISK to LP ratio paid is the right one to not generate it unless people completely forgo using their LP so it INDEED does not generate ISK in a big way compared to any form of bounty payout.
You are intelligent enough to know wealth generation in LP/items is not an ISK faucet.
The wealth generation rate might be high but as the guy you quoted said, it barely generate any ISK unless that player forgo his LP which would drasticly reduce his real wealth generation way below the ever mentioned possible 200+ mill/hours. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2135
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 13:04:12 -
[70] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:tl;dr - This is a very stupid idea. Incursions are fine the way they are.
Now a real issue is the wildly disproportionate risk versus reward ratio for suicide ganks. There needs to be much much more risk. It's murder and easy after all. Oh wait, that's a different thread.
If you want to make them more gankable, you need to nerf the content so they can shitfit their wtfpwnblingmobile more. The current level of tank + logi support is required by the content itself. They counter gank by default. |
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2398
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 14:49:02 -
[71] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:So you decided to necro 4 different incursion threads? Is someone afraid of their unbalanced cash cow getting slaughtered?
I didn't check the other ones yet but this is the second where a nerf is called for in the necro. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2400
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 16:21:51 -
[72] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I experienced the issue being discussed here last night, again. I'll recount it as it describes the issue perfectly.
So last night I'm playing EVE and chatting with my buddy in our personal channel (we were in Atlas and INIT together, now were in different alliances but still hang out together in chat with some other buddies from those days). He tried a bit of ratting and decided it was stupid, so he fired up his high sec incursion alt. He linked his Nightmare in chat and she is beautiful lol.
A while later (he's stopped talking to concentrate on running incursions, and for the record he was on the wait list for 4 minutes, got to love TVP) he says "ok, now that's better" and copy pastes his 31.5 mil wallet ticks.
While he's doing that I had to stop ratting because a Bastion fleet in Navy Harbs came though. Re-shiped into Cynabals and went after them, caught up to them in PFR space and had a 3 way skirmish. Didn't die this time, which is a wonder because i always die. So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything.....
Now what I did I do instead of going back to ratting after the enemy threat was gone (where i was at least vulnerable to others, creating content)? Yep,, you guessed it...I fired up the old Incursion alt. Fit for travel (i'd logged off in the old incursion focus) and went 26 peaceful jumps through high sec to reach the incursion, got on the automated watch list and was invited to fleet a whole 2 jumps before my destination.
2 hours later (when it was time to log off for bed, damn work the next morning) I was 252 million isk and 56000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before (of course I gotta wiat for the mom to pop to get the LP, but it's mine no matter what). Even with those 26 jumps factored in, that's better isk than i would have made ratting in null. I was left with the same feeling as always...questioning WHY was I wasting my time ratting in Null (or rather , why was i MANUALLY ratting in null with a mach when I could have just done afk ishtars in null while I incursioned in high).
If you can read the above and not see a broken thing filled with adverse (ie backwards) incentives, you aren't paying attention.
Slash the ISK payout (slashing the LP would only make those LP go up in value/LP) and add waves to sites so clearing them takes longer. Make them "special HS waves" which are identical copy of the previous one if needed so you have to shoot more EHP worth of bad guys before the site trigger as completed. The super low danger effect will never really go away unless you just flat out remove the content if the buffed spawn rate seems to indicate CCP want people to run the content. The only thing I really see as changing is the payout and the speed. Removing content is just silly imo. Change the way it work is better.
The low risk is more than likely never going away. The guy paying 15$ a month to grind his raven isn't really in trouble if mission peak income is slashed to 40 mill/hours and purple incursion boat sailor are not in danger even if it drop to 50 mill/hours peak. At the same time, the risk/reward ratio of income will ALWAYS be wonky because you can't really put a ratio on it. How LS/NS and WH are more dangerous than HS is based on too many variable so setting up a real ratio is kind of impossible. The thing is, it should at least be more lucrative in dangerous space even if forgetting about the added risk. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2401
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 17:14:22 -
[73] - Quote
CEALAlatriste wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I experienced the issue being discussed here last night, again. I'll recount it as it describes the issue perfectly.
So last night I'm playing EVE and chatting with my buddy in our personal channel (we were in Atlas and INIT together, now were in different alliances but still hang out together in chat with some other buddies from those days). He tried a bit of ratting and decided it was stupid, so he fired up his high sec incursion alt. He linked his Nightmare in chat and she is beautiful lol.
A while later (he's stopped talking to concentrate on running incursions, and for the record he was on the wait list for 4 minutes, got to love TVP) he says "ok, now that's better" and copy pastes his 31.5 mil wallet ticks.
While he's doing that I had to stop ratting because a Bastion fleet in Navy Harbs came though. Re-shiped into Cynabals and went after them, caught up to them in PFR space and had a 3 way skirmish. Didn't die this time, which is a wonder because i always die. So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything.....
Now what I did I do instead of going back to ratting after the enemy threat was gone (where i was at least vulnerable to others, creating content)? Yep,, you guessed it...I fired up the old Incursion alt. Fit for travel (i'd logged off in the old incursion focus) and went 26 peaceful jumps through high sec to reach the incursion, got on the automated watch list and was invited to fleet a whole 2 jumps before my destination.
2 hours later (when it was time to log off for bed, damn work the next morning) I was 252 million isk and 56000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before (of course I gotta wiat for the mom to pop to get the LP, but it's mine no matter what). Even with those 26 jumps factored in, that's better isk than i would have made ratting in null. I was left with the same feeling as always...questioning WHY was I wasting my time ratting in Null (or rather , why was i MANUALLY ratting in null with a mach when I could have just done afk ishtars in null while I incursioned in high).
If you can read the above and not see a broken thing filled with adverse (ie backwards) incentives, you aren't paying attention. You must be in EU timezone then, because in US timezone yesterday, after doing 33 boring jumps through high sec to reach the incursion i got on the automated watch list only too see that there was no fleet because there was no FC available. This happens in US timezone every night now, even in weekends. There is not enough people to keep a HQ fleet up. And VG fleets are struggling too. You waste more time moving, waiting and forming than running. We were waiting and reforming for almost 2 hours because there was only 90 people in the whole incursion constellation (normal was 300-400), and after that we could run with minimum numbers (less than 30) so the only thing we could do was tpphs, at a rate of 30 minutes each. I had to log off for bed, so after 3 hours and 33 boring jumps through high sec i was only 70 millions isk and 14000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before. That's worst isk than i would have made ratting in null with a lonely afk isthar. PD: If you dont see that your personal experiencie proves nothing, you aren't paying attention.
If you don't balance around the possible peak or close to it, anyone getting near it will break the system... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 21:18:49 -
[74] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:if someone dislikes teh incursion groups so much.....best solution i think is simply not to let them farm them.....go in and pop the mom and end each incursion soon as the runners fill the bar full blue.
If I form a fleet that can POP the mom, I might as well just farm sites with it... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 21:27:05 -
[75] - Quote
Sometime I wonder how a gank would fare with tornadoes on a TCRC spawn if they followed the fleet going and shot for the poor dude getting 2 otuni neuting him to ****. I can't remember if the initial spawn point the first primary tho. If it did, you would not need to divert rat aggro to yourself with a point... Anyone tried to do that? It's probbaly hard as hell to time well... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 22:00:36 -
[76] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Sometime I wonder how a gank would fare with tornadoes on a TCRC spawn if they followed the fleet going and shot for the poor dude getting 2 otuni neuting him to ****. I can't remember if the initial spawn point the first primary tho. If it did, you would not need to divert rat aggro to yourself with a point... Anyone tried to do that? It's probbaly hard as hell to time well... The thing I like about EvE is that people are so very creative and do try stuff. If there is a reliable way to ruin someone's day, it will be found. Think about all the tantalizing and blingy boats that are out there day after day, yet for all the pilots various groups have to man catalysts, talos, and even brutix, these are left alone. Yeah there are stories of particularly bling encrusted boats being ganked, but the frequency with which it happens, versus what you would expect given the target quality and density speaks volumes on how practical and viable it is. Another issue is that well...thanks to the changes in AegisSov, Pirate battleships are cheap, as is bling. Pirates actually don't have as easy a time staying solvent when none of the loot is worth much any more.
The market value of loot crashing is not really related unless you think CCP should nerf/buff ships potential EHP following market trends... At what level of bling should a ship be gank-worthy anyway? Should it be worth it with a T2 fit? faction? C type? B type? A type? If you say A type, should the potential EHP of ships gets nerfed every time mods get more farmed and thus drop in price to another lower level?
How much teamwork is supposed to be enough to prevent yourself from being ganked or at least to be put out of financially sound to gank? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:14:17 -
[77] - Quote
Raya Su Rollard wrote:I've carefully read the OPs text and I can say all 4 points are FLAWED. I can easily prove it, but I have no incentive to do so. Basically, if CCP ever nerfs incursions or move them to lowsec ( like they did with L5s ), not only almost nobody will do them, but also they would move another ISK faucet to low/NULL sec.
Have to remind everyone that the "Bounties" are already the highest isk faucet in the game and the ratting happen mostly in NULL. There people farm even in supers, worth 20b or simply in carriers, but these things are not well known as tthose who blame the Highsec Incursions either never go NULL or they're simply living in null and hope to make even more money, not just from ratting, but also from incursions.
In conclusion, if they remove the incursions from Highsec, all the isk faucets ( Bounties, DED sites, incursions will be in 0.0 space and very little left in HS.
The problem with incursion isn't that it's a faucet so or course removing them from HS won't solve the faucet problem. Part of the faucet effect of incursion is nullified by the LP generation anyway and I really doubt this was ever taken into account in any faucet/sink graph.
The issue with HS incursion is how they are just head and shoulder above pretty much anything else in term of of income generation while also happening under the protection of CONCORD. To fix this there are effectively 2 way, you nerf the income they generate or you increase the risk. To choose the "right" path to accomplish this, you also have to set legit goals. Stuff like "do you want them to still be run close to as often as they are now?". If you don't care about how often they will get run after you make a change, then any way will work because the real end result is does not matter. Suggestion like "make CONCORD not protect people in sites" would definately lower the income of incursion runners by lowering the bling on their fits which slow down completion time and adding losses which also reduce completion time. The issue is, would the content still be run?
Removing them from HS has a potential similar effect. You don't see people run around to run the ones in LS because the added risk of no CONCORD seems to be too high to form up what essentially amount to a battleship fleet in a beaconed space pocket. Even before they buffed the spawn rate, the low sec one were only occasionally ran because most people could not be bothered to deal with what doing it in LS meant.
Lowering the payout MIGHT work but there are also flaws there. The LP side of of the equation is self balancing. Reducing how many LP you get per sites would lead to an increase of value per LP as the supply drops and the demand for CONCORD LP items is still there. The ISK portion of the payout could be slashed drastically as it's not based on the market. Dropping the ISK payout to a direct 1k ISK : 1 LP would reduce the ISK/sites in a good amount while also technically completely removing the "ISK faucet" element of incursion as you would burn all gained ISK on LP store purchase. Some leftover would more than likely stay as burning exactly all your LP might prove troublesome but it would be a step toward that.
This BTW does not take into account other form of income to which incursion runner who are jsut after good isk/hours figure could turn to. If you nail incursion hard while leaving mission blitzing as it currently is, lot of people would just swap their incursion bling boat to mission bling boat. If CCP ever want to play with relative income of different spaces, they need to take a broad approach or it will just generate a new FOTM. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:19:32 -
[78] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Lan Wang wrote:what exactly does "contest" mean? you cant aggress another group so what are you doing? Contesting in Incursions means you have more than one group trying to complete the same site. The side that does the most damage to npcs/important structures in the site gets all the pay out. Contesting is on of the few balance point Sansha incursions have, and it's insufficient.
They are also the best way to baloon up your isk/hours if you have a better setup than the other side. The percent figure would technically lower your site completion by 49.9% since you don't have to deal with the EHP the other side clear for you. More plausible rate is probably around 30% faster since TPPH for example would still have all the travel time and NRF positioning would be awkward to pull as nicely as it is done now to keep everyone in their optimal ranges with much faster spawning waves.
Talk about making others work for you... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:57:01 -
[79] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Suggestion like "make CONCORD not protect people in sites" would definately lower the income of incursion runners by lowering the bling on their fits which slow down completion time and adding losses which also reduce completion time. The issue is, would the content still be run? The upside to that over removing them from HS though is that bailing out of the content when aggressed is still an option without knowing for sure that every gate out will be camped to catch your evac. Once out of the site, concord protection resumes. Players who are willing to keep an eye out for warning signs of incoming danger or willing to put up a fight would still be able to run them without issues and without rolling blinged ships through lowsec gates.
It would depend on who get what flag following the implementation of different CONCORD behaviour on different grid across a system. Logi getting a flag for repping token damage on a ship and making them valid target would get silly real fast for example. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 18:45:33 -
[80] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hey yall, i had to take my troll radar to the shop because it got broken when I turned it on while reading reddit. So i can't tell, it's this guy trolling me, or what?
I can't compute that serie of quotes. No help from me... |
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 14:07:39 -
[81] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:My bad for responding to the forum troll. You could clarify WTF you meant instead of calling others trolls... I experienced the event, but did not partcipate. What part needs clarcification in the mind of a Goon?
So you have never seen how the income flow while running them or the risk level faced when running them. You just somehow flew in a system where an incursion was under way and potentially faced some rats un-prepared.
Thanks for having an opinion on it I guess... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2405
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:14:04 -
[82] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Johan Civire wrote:Funny that people get upset when the cash cow is going to die. Its about time. No risk no reward or at least 90% lower reward. And farming the side and leave the mother ship alive is just plain nonsense.
That's one of those unintended consequences. People should be punished for letting the MOM live, not rewarded. So at the very least rewards should start to decay the longer you let the mothership live. The original (flawed) idea CCP had for incursions is that pick up groups of local would form to fight them off so as to return their constellation to normalcy. That never happened, what did happen is roving gangs of isk hungry vagabonds formed formal 'communites' to farm isk for as long as possible. Incursion rewards would be fine if not for the over farming, and over farming only happens because the system offers no penalty for letting the Incursion's "boss" live as long as possible.
Nobody is attached the the constellation in HS since anything you do can be done 3 system away in another constellation. People don't push to close them fast because there is also no need to.
Cyno inhibition in null is a big deal and needs to be cleared in many constellation ASAP. In HS, meh...
Rats from incursion on gates in null pose a real danger. In HS, lolololololololololol...
Bounties cutoff on rat matter somewhat in null. In HS, well I guess I can go mission for agent Y instead of X...
There is just no point to killing it faster. Hell even if you made the payout go down, people would figure how long they can farm more sites before killing it to optimise their gain taking into account the slowly increasing penalty and then, it's respawn time!!! |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2405
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:29:25 -
[83] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Johan Civire wrote:Funny that people get upset when the cash cow is going to die. Its about time. No risk no reward or at least 90% lower reward. And farming the side and leave the mother ship alive is just plain nonsense.
That's one of those unintended consequences. People should be punished for letting the MOM live, not rewarded. So at the very least rewards should start to decay the longer you let the mothership live. The original (flawed) idea CCP had for incursions is that pick up groups of local would form to fight them off so as to return their constellation to normalcy. That never happened, what did happen is roving gangs of isk hungry vagabonds formed formal 'communites' to farm isk for as long as possible. Incursion rewards would be fine if not for the over farming, and over farming only happens because the system offers no penalty for letting the Incursion's "boss" live as long as possible. Nobody is attached the the constellation in HS since anything you do can be done 3 system away in another constellation. People don't push to close them fast because there is also no need to. ] This is not true. Go to Dotlan and see where most the NPC kills are. Hint, SOE agents aren't found everywhere.
You can go to another SOE agent if "yours" is under incursion. CCP should make a test and put incursion in all system where SoE has an agent and see if it gets cleared faster or not. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2405
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 17:17:11 -
[84] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Have you considered that things are just the way CCP wants them to be? EvE propagates the survival of the fittest, the strong shall prosper. If you think about it this is exactly right up CCPs road. The incursion runners have the means, the organisation and the will to reap the rewards. They take actions. If you want your share, claim it. The game offers a nice reward for those willing to take it. People sitting on the sidelines to moan dont seem to concern the devs. At least I dont see CCP commenting on the situation.
CCP barely comment on changes they announce themselves and you think they will comment on stuff brought up in threadnought like that? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2406
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 20:42:55 -
[85] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them? We are, that's the problem. So ppl like you and Jenn aSide filled your pockets to the brim and want close the isk faucet for others? Very selfless of you. Maybe those isk faucets are the reason for the inflationary plex prices... Woa maybe this is an undercover plex-price-whine-thread?
THey are still filling their pocket and I would too if I didn't follow my personal "no alts" rule. It's easy, medium investement at most, low risk and better paying than pretty much anything but WH. Beside guys like me who don't want alts, there is only one other reason why people would not want to run that over anything else and it's being un-able to stand being in a fleet. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2407
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:42:09 -
[86] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Lan Wang wrote:not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec Yes, but why did they put a high profit gig like incursions under the protection of Concord? Wouldnt you think there is a purpose to that decision? They've said as much in the past, there was none. People were intended to defeat the Sansha in order to get rid of the NPCs who might attack them, their being farmed is wholly unintentional.
They could probably start by just "fixing" this by making the incursion close after 2 hours of full blue bar. It still leaves time to form up the bigger fleet to complete it but no more 3 days of farming. From there, who knows exactly how it would change how they are run.
They could potentially spawn faster after a kill if CCP think they should always be available but at least a larger portion of the sites would be ran with some red bar which technically are at least a little bit harder... It also adds more time spent travelling to the equation. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2407
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 15:31:31 -
[87] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Lan Wang wrote:not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec Yes, but why did they put a high profit gig like incursions under the protection of Concord? Wouldnt you think there is a purpose to that decision? They've said as much in the past, there was none. People were intended to defeat the Sansha in order to get rid of the NPCs who might attack them, their being farmed is wholly unintentional. They could probably start by just "fixing" this by making the incursion close after 2 hours of full blue bar. It still leaves time to form up the bigger fleet to complete it but no more 3 days of farming. From there, who knows exactly how it would change how they are run. They could potentially spawn faster after a kill if CCP think they should always be available but at least a larger portion of the sites would be ran with some red bar which technically are at least a little bit harder... It also adds more time spent travelling to the equation. Going from 72 hours to 2 hours seems a bit extreme don't you think? I mean I don't agree with the farming concept but you're talking about reducing it to less than 3%. DO you think that's a good number?
If another one respawn? Sure. Just move to the next one. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2409
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:31:50 -
[88] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?
Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.
Don't worry, people will find other stuff to put deadspace modules on. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2409
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:34:22 -
[89] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
Null-sec ratting is actually very safe, depending where you are.
But they are right when they say incursions in null are a problem. As those incursions in null could be in a neighbouring alliance controlled system.
I don't see the answer is in removing incursions but maybe null and low need something else on a comparable rate.
Ratting in null is only as safe has the locals manage to make it. We don't have a NPC police force punishing every criminal action. We have to keep people out or hunt them out if they came in. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2411
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:36:34 -
[90] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?
Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking. Don't worry, people will find other stuff to put deadspace modules on. The market isn't even buying up the glut right now... you want to take a few thousand Vindicator fits and dump those mods on the market and remove their demand too? I guess economics isn't important to this huh?
We'll put the mods on our ratting boat that might get killed instead of on incursion boat that dies once in a blue moon. |
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